Just looking for some comfort and experiences of others who have given up/scrapped/shelved a game.

My enthusiasm for the one I've been working on since I joined this place has been diminishing for a few days now. I don't think I planned properly and now find myself wandering around blindly, setting up locations and characters without really knowing what part they'll play in the game.

That's not to say the masses of help I've had on this game has been a waste of time, however, because it's all transferable, of course, regardless of the game's theme/story.

I just can't shake off the annoyance that I can't see this one through, especially with the work that's gone into it.

So how do you lot handle your failures... presuming you have them?

I responded to this in the 'Likely Commands' thread, but I just want to emphasize again that having to abandon or shelve a project for awhile (or forever) is something pretty much every IF author goes through. And it's especially common when you're new...I think everybody goes through that 'OMG I'm going to write the BIGGEST most AMAZING game and I've got the COOLEST ideas for it to do THIS and THIS and THIS' phase until they really get to work and realize how far over their heads they are, or what a ridiculous amount of time and sheer dedication it would take to pull off. (Luckily I got most of this out of my system during my ADRIFT phase...)

Or sometimes your game is coming along just fine and you just get bored with it. There's no harm in setting it aside a little while to work on a new project or play some other people's games for awhile. Either your enthusiasm for it will come back or it won't, but as I said in the other thread, there's no point in forcing yourself to continue until you're miserable and sick of it.

Though sometimes I've found that instead of shelving a project entirely, I can jump around and work on some other aspect of it. If you're tired of the programming side of things, just skip over to adding to writing descriptions for awhile, or vice versa. Or think of an interesting puzzle you'd like to add and just focus on that for awhile and don't worry about the rest. Either way, it'll all still be there waiting for you when you're ready to tackle it again.

I think one of my downsides with things like this is how easily discouraged I am by the fact that I can't do something immediately.

Take my current game. Yes, I was getting a little bored of it, but that's not to say I was looking at scrapping it, or even shelving it, until tonight when I tried to handle the multiple NPCs, conversations and all the other connotations that go with such a scene. I described the scene, plonked a few NPCs there (as scenery initially), but then started to look at the scene as a player. When it dawned on me that a player would want to talk to each of the NPCs about a number of leads, I suddenly realised what a mammoth task this one scene would be.

Maybe my lack of experience meant I was going about it all wrong, but I had to set up four different command patterns for each of the bar's occupants, to allow for questioning about the four leads the player would have at this point. But even on doing that I then had the problem of allowing for a player talking to the same NPC twice, so then decided I was going to need two sets of responses from the NPC, in case the player tried to talk to them twice, and then have to handle multiple flags so the game would know who the player hand and hadn't already talked to.

This one scene was going to end up bigger than the whole game.

And that's when I thought, "I can't do this," and my heart sank.

You do realize you don't have to implement deep meaningful interaction with every NPC in the game, right? If they were meant to be just scenery they're not even proper NPCs and you don't have to give them special conversation commands at all. Every object has that handy 'Script to run when asked about unknown topic' bit under Ask/Tell. You could just put something there about them brushing off or ignoring the player (which would be a perfectly natural reaction to some random stranger barging in and pestering them with questions) and move on to the actually plot-relevant bits elsewhere.

Marzipan wrote:You do realize you don't have to implement deep meaningful interaction with every NPC in the game, right? If they were meant to be just scenery you don't have to give them special conversation commands at all. Every object has that handy 'Script to run when asked about unknown topic' bit under Ask/Tell. You could just put something there about them brushing off or ignoring the player (which would be a perfectly natural reaction to some random stranger barging in and pestering them with questions) and move on to the actually plot-relevant bits elsewhere.

Well... I kind of knew it was a choice, but didn't know how to go about it. I thought even if I wanted to brush the player off, I would have to set up a series of commands that the player might use when they wanted to talk to NPCs.

So I make each character an object, change them from inanimate to him/her, and under the Ask/Tell tab I can run a script which will have them respond if the payer types 'talk to...' or 'ask...' ??

I can feel my enthusiasm surging back...

Glad to hear it!

And yeah, what you've described is basically exactly what you have to do. Under the Ask/Tell tabs you'll see lines that says 'Script to run when asked/told about an unknown topic'. If you don't have any specific conversation topics defined then anything the player asks them about will count as unknown, all you really need there is a print message that spits out a generic response.

Marzipan wrote:Glad to hear it!

And yeah, what you've described is basically exactly what you have to do. Under the Ask/Tell tabs you'll see lines that says 'Script to run when asked/told about an unknown topic'. If you don't have any specific conversation topics defined then anything the player asks them about will count as unknown, all you really need there is a print message that spits out a generic response.

Marvelous!

A lot of the early RPGs (especially NES and SNES RPGs), have npcs with only one line, much simplier , than giving them dynamic, complex, and numerous conversation topics, like in the Elder Scroll games, for an example of the modern RPGs.

Did you get round to reading that Emily Short article on IF design that you said you'd 'bookmark', Judd? It predicted that you'd find yourself in this very position and suggests ways to go about stopping it (the shelving of projects) from happening.

Silver wrote:Did you get round to reading that Emily Short article on IF design that you said you'd 'bookmark', Judd? It predicted that you'd find yourself in this very position and suggests ways to go about stopping it (the shelving of projects) from happening.

Are you sure that was me? I don't have anything in there. You got the link again?

OurJud wrote:

"Silver"

Did you get round to reading that Emily Short article on IF design that you said you'd 'bookmark', Judd? It predicted that you'd find yourself in this very position and suggests ways to go about stopping it (the shelving of projects) from happening.

Are you sure that was me? I don't have anything in there. You got the link again?

It was on your thread about planning and was posted by George.
viewtopic.php?p=32097#p32097

Yes. Sorry, I had bookmarked it, but I have that many I struggle to find them sometimes.

I skim-read it at the time, but haven't been back to digest it fully yet.

You should download the IF Theory Reader for bed time perusal. Lots of great stuff in there.

http://www.lulu.com/shop/kevin-jackson- ... 51190.html

Silver wrote:You should download the IF Theory Reader for bed time perusal. Lots of great stuff in there.

http://www.lulu.com/shop/kevin-jackson- ... 51190.html

No printer right now, but I might ask a family member. Mind you, I'm not sure they'll appreciate me printing off 438 pages

Um you can just read it on your pc.

I don't think I'd shelve a project (if by shelve you mean scrap). I'd be more inclined to start working on something else or even just take a step back for a bit and do other stuff with my time and then take another look with fresh eyes after a period of time. I've found myself reading a lot more of late, which is no bad thing, but as an aside, if you want to write reading seems the perfect break so to speak. Because you're still in the zone of creative writing. File it under 'research'. I stop myself from playing games though as the good ones are a complete time sink lol.

I can't say I've shelved my game, but I haven't even opened Quest for weeks now. Just don't seem to be able to motivate myself to finish the damn thing!

Should come as no surprise really - I don't think I've ever seen anything through to the end in my entire life.

Do what everyone else does and start something new.

Silver wrote:Do what everyone else does and start something new.

I do.... and then run out of steam / lose interest with / on that too

In my case, it took me over two years to finish my first real game. Not that that's inspirational on its own. More that I gave up on it and came back to it multiple times, working on other things in the meantime. It just kept calling to me, and little by little, it gained enough momentum that I just had to get it done and out (and "done" is qualified in this case. Perhaps "done enough").

So I'd say put it in a drawer for now (or on the shelf), try some other things that interest you, and see if it calls you back. If it does, then there's something there. If not, then it was your first project learning Quest, and take what you can from that experience.

OurJud wrote:Should come as no surprise really - I don't think I've ever seen anything through to the end in my entire life.

As someone with experience with mental illness, I'm going to suggest, from that sentence, that your real problem may be that you're depressed. I don't know if you have any experience with that, but my advice is to forget about the project for now and just get yourself in a better brain space. (If you do have experience with depression, you'll know what works for you.) If you fixate on your game right now it'll just be one more thing that's going wrong for your brain to turn into a reason to be depressed. Once you get the clouds out from over your head, then you can think about revisiting your game with a clear mind.

Thus ends my armchair therapy. Hope things work out for you in any case.

My turn now please doctor!

Keep in mind as well that projects often don't get easier as they approach the end. On the contrary, they usually get harder. I have been involved in shipping software, and the last 5% is like giving birth (not that I know what *that* is like from personal experience). I just mean it's not a breeze or as easy or fun as the beginning can be. (I won't delve deeper into that metaphor.) That's just the nature of the beast. Especially when the final polish is no longer fun. Having to do it for a living at least forced me to push through it, as that was what I was being paid to do. In my own personal projects, I have "not finished" more than I have "finished". When you're driven by your own interest rather than an imposed deadline, a waning of interest toward the end can be fatal until the desire to actually get it out provides the impetus... at some point. Unfortunately, it can also be natural, especially when life intrudes and the rhythm is lost.

The same as any art really. It's easier to doodle out the ideas than it is to tie up the loose ends into a finished work. Ask any writer how many unfinished stories they have, or digital composers how many interesting music projects are sitting there unarranged and unstructured.

jdpjdpjdp wrote:

"OurJud"

Should come as no surprise really - I don't think I've ever seen anything through to the end in my entire life.

As someone with experience with mental illness, I'm going to suggest, from that sentence, that your real problem may be that you're depressed. I don't know if you have any experience with that, but my advice is to forget about the project for now and just get yourself in a better brain space. (If you do have experience with depression, you'll know what works for you.) If you fixate on your game right now it'll just be one more thing that's going wrong for your brain to turn into a reason to be depressed. Once you get the clouds out from over your head, then you can think about revisiting your game with a clear mind.

Thus ends my armchair therapy. Hope things work out for you in any case.

Yes, I was officially diagnosed (by none other than our family GP - Dr H Shipman ) when I was 18. As you'll know depression never really leaves you, just goes and lies dormant for the occasional period (if you're lucky).

And you're dead right, sitting down to write some more on the game, only to end up doing little more than a single room description before losing interest, only serves to inflate that depression.

jaynabonne wrote:So I'd say put it in a drawer for now (or on the shelf), try some other things that interest you, and see if it calls you back. If it does, then there's something there. If not, then it was your first project learning Quest, and take what you can from that experience.

Good advice, Jay. Thanks. However, the thought of not finishing this game would only nag away at me as just another thing I've failed at.

Silver wrote:The same as any art really. It's easier to doodle out the ideas than it is to tie up the loose ends into a finished work. Ask any writer how many unfinished stories they have, or digital composers how many interesting music projects are sitting there unarranged and unstructured.

Very true.

Anyway, The first of the Masters Snooker semi-finals is just about to begin - O'Sullivan Vs Robertson - so I'm set for the affy

Two things.

First, don't consider shelving something that has lost momentum (for now) failure. That sort of internal monologue puts a negative spin on something that happens naturally to everyone. Stephen King even recommends taking your first draft and putting it in a drawer for a few months (he says six) so that you can view it with fresh eyes while editing and the later phases of rework. That may not apply here, but the important part is that it's ok for creative endeavors to take time.

Second, even a single room a day (or some part of a single room) is progress. If the entire thing looks daunting, do what you have time, energy and interest for. Baby steps are still steps. They say to just do something each day, just *one thing* to advance what you're working on. If you do even one thing, add one command, tweak one description, fix one typo, play through it one more time, anything - you're advancing your work. And it adds up in the end, and it might even gain momentum as you get closer to the end.

(Not to try to be too inspirational , but once when I was younger, I was taking a bike ride between cities on this road that ran along the freeway. I reached a stretch that was steadily heading uphill, and did for quite a while. I was bit tired and on the verge of giving up. It looked too big to get past. Instead, I just put my head down and focused on the road ahead of me. Rather than see the summit coming toward me in an agonizingly slow way, I just watched the road ahead of me passing past my tires, something that allowed me to see progress. And so, head down, I just took one pedal rotation at a time, watching the road going by, knowing I was moving forward, albeit slowly. And finally I looked up and I was right there at the top. That taught me something: even small steps are steps, and small steps add up into large ones. If the overall task feels too big, break it down and take it piece by piece. And recognize the accomplishment in even a single room!)

jaynabonne wrote:I just put my head down and focused on the road ahead of me. Rather than see the summit coming toward me in an agonizingly slow way, I just watched the road ahead of me passing past my tires...

... and crashed into the back of an ice cream van

Joking aside, that was an inspirational little read, whether you intended it or not

Kate Bush is apologetic over the amount of time her 'creative process' takes.
A mate of mine is a music producer. He always reckoned there was only a finite amount of time a day that the brain was any use and anything after that point was reached was a waste of time as you needed the break. It was as good an excuse as any to retire to the pub.

OurJud wrote:As you'll know depression never really leaves you, just goes and lies dormant for the occasional period (if you're lucky).

That's been my experience too. That said, Jay's points -- that even small progress is progress, and that creating can be worthwhile even if you don't finish -- are valid ones... it's just that we're not always in the right frame of mind to see it that way.

Anyway, The first of the Masters Snooker semi-finals is just about to begin - O'Sullivan Vs Robertson - so I'm set for the affy

You followed that with a , so despite being American to the point of not understanding half of that sentence, I'll assume it's something that'll improve your mood. Enjoy!

Translation: he's watching the snooker on tv this afternoon.

jdpjdpjdp wrote:You followed that with a , so despite being American to the point of not understanding half of that sentence, I'll assume it's something that'll improve your mood. Enjoy!

Yes. What Silver said on the previous page

Imagine the game of pool, only with a much bigger table and far smaller pockets.

Or 8-ball, as they call it in the USA.

They have snooker though, don't they?

We do, indeed, have snooker, though it's clearly far more popular on your side of the Atlantic. I honestly didn't even register the word, despite having actually played snooker once or twice, only because it's been a very, very long time.

And 8-Ball is actually one kind of pool game, not just another name for pool. 8-Ball is the simplest, though, so it's the one most people play. I loved playing all kinds of pool when I was younger, despite being an average player at best. Oh for the days when you could do something just because it was fun, even if you stunk at it, without self criticism ruining your good time...

Oh I didn't realise that. We only have one game of pool - pot all your own colour then black to win. Although there's variations such as killer.

Silver wrote:Oh I didn't realise that. We only have one game of pool - pot all your own colour then black to win. Although there's variations such as killer.

Maybe in the pubs, but I think 9-ball is played on the circuits, even in the UK. I personally prefer 9-ball - it's a far more tactical game.

Fair enough. I've only ever played when tipsy tbh.

Yeah, what little pro-pool I've watched has been either 9-ball or straight pool, but I don't think they televise the latter much anymore because it's a much harder, longer game. Hell of a lot of fun to watch if the players are good, though.

What are you all even talking about, you're not making any sense, stop it right now.

I'm from the US originally, and I had never seen snooker until I began coming to the UK. It's actually amazing to me to watch the level of skill these players bring to the table (literally).

I'm not a big fan of sport, particularly. Snooker is fascinating to watch though.

Anyway, getting BOT, I've just forced myself to do a little more on my game - a mistake. I honestly thought I was in the mood, but five minutes in I felt my interest, inspiration and enthusiasm waning hard and now I'm irritated and disheartened, and have been left wondering if I'll ever finish it.

I can't believe I've come this far, only to lose all interest right at the end.

I know we've been here before and everyone's offered their tips and advice, and shared their similar experiences, but I'm just not sure I can be bothered with it.

I'm also incredibly angry with myself. I wanted to give you all a look at my game, not because I think it's brilliant, but just to show that all those hours of help you gave me were not wasted.

Just go and do other stuff for a bit (a month or two?) and don't even think about the game. Watch some films and read some books. Soaking up other people's creativity might kick start yours into action again. I usually get loads of ideas from research. I'm a dive right in kind of guy like you but if no research has happened yet just do fun stuff and file it under that.

I think the problem is that my creative urges come in spurts. I'm either all over it like a rash, or not at all, and sometimes find it hard to admit to myself when I'm not in the former of those places.

I've never been able to establish why my creative juices run so utterly dry, but it's certainly a frustrating time when they do.

Happens with everyone. I think with you it seems you're in a rush to get it finished. Where as you should just put it on the back burner for a bit.

Yup! S'pect you're right.

Isn't your game gangster-based? Consume loads of Mafia/Cosa Nostra stuff. Oh, you don't do grim, do you?

Silver wrote:Isn't your game gangster-based? Consume loads of Mafia/Cosa Nostra stuff. Oh, you don't do grim, do you?

No, but I could always speak to my dad. He consumes so much of that stuff I reckon he'd make a great time-traveling supergrass.

My game might as well be shelved, I haven't touched it, or worked on anything else remotely creative in about a month now.

I am seriously tempted to quit my job right now.

These things are sent to try us. My only advice having never finished a game myself lol is to not place too much pressure on the creative process. The real world adds enough on its own. Your project will still be there as soon as you get your head back.

Thanks for the encouragement. It has been frustrating though. I had two projects that were so close to being finished and a third much larger one I was having fun just messing around with, and I can trace the complete cessation of all creative activity directly to the point where the manager screwed around with my work schedule. With all the driving involved on top of that I really am starting to question whether the money I'm making is worth the time and stress involved.

...anyone know of a big sturdy cardboard box anywhere, sheltered from the rain and with good access to wi-fi?

Most of us are doing this for fun so there's no time pressure really. Although work leaving no time for hobbies must be frustrating.

Would either of you be interested in working together on making a game? I'm trying to learn coding and in-towards making a game, but it's a slow process, and I'm just wondering if having a team ~ cooperation, might be of more help to me in learning to code more, and thus make more progress towards making a game.

@Silver, and
@Marzipan
(@anyone else too)

you both want to make an RPG right? well, would you two be interested in cooperatively working together towards learning to code more and progress on~towards making a game? I'd just like to see what it's like working with others in learning to code and game make, vs trying to do so on my own. if, you're interested, let me know. this will obviously be a hobby, as we got busy real lives, but maybe we can work on some aspect of coding ~ game making, comparing ~ sharing our work, and hopefully improving our skills and ideas from it.

How would it work? There's one aslx file and if everyone worked on it at the same time you'd be overwriting each other. If everyone agreed to work on it at separate times it'd go no quicker than doing it on your own.

I'm not against the idea although it would inevitably slow down my own project ( scifi not rpg ) which I doubt will make a 2015 release as it is.

I was more just thinking of cooperatively sharing ideas, designs, and code. As it might help us (well, I think Marzipan is a good coder already, but for us) learn faster~better (as I'm finding my progress on my own, a bit slow). Try to build off of each other to improve both of our abilities.

HK: hey, here's my combat code that I've been working on, see what you think, Silver.
Marzipan: hey, here's my combat code, see what you think, HK.
Silver: hey, here's my equipment code, see what you think, HK.
Slver: hey, here's my design for character interaction, see what you think, HK.
Marzipan: hey, this is how I go about creating my game, see what you think, HK.

Marzipan: I'll work on~create an equipment~item system, see what you guys think.
HK: I'll work on~create the character creation system, see what you guys think.
Silver: I'll work on~create a date~time system, see what you guys think.

All: let's brainstorm the design of our magic system

Marzipan: hey HK, first work on defining your basic Attributes and their functionality (game mechanics), before you work on character creation.
Silver: hey HK, work on this part~aspect of your game making, this way, not the way you were doing it.

just kinda like this... more of a cooperation of sharing our ideas, designs, organization, planning, code, and etc, rather than a direct teamwork project.

I'd be up for the conversation yeah. Although my game isn't rpg (it's just a bog standard object based TA) I definitely have an interest in that area.

it can also jsut be a way to help motivate us (due to our laziness, game-making writer's block, or just lack of interest) too:

short term small goals (which slowly moves us towards game making completion) to accomplish

Silver: hey HK, have you got done your time and date system yet? HK: no. Silver: kicks HK's bottom, get to work, lazy bum! HK: okay okay, I'm working now! (HK rubs his sore bum,grumbling, but working, lol)

if we've got commitments to others, it can keep us working on our games, reducing the number of our 'shelved projects', hehe.

My game is always progressing. Just very slowly. But I'm still learning quite a lot and being thorough.