I am thinking of trying to use quest to implement some old style RPG gamebooks, or at least their style.

For example, the old Lone Wolf series of books by Joe Dever (who has kindly given permission to redistribute his original works via Project Aon, or the Fighting Fantasy series by Ian Livingstone and Steve Jackson.

For any of you who have not come across these (where have you been), the are a cross between IF and D&D.

A book is split into, on average, between 300-400 passages. At the end of at least 50% of these passages you generally have a choice to make. Most choices are however, unlike an IF dungeon, irreversible. This in and of itself is not really an issue, as one way paths are easy to implement.

What sets these books apart though is the use of random numbers, skills and combat.

Lets take these one at a time.

Skills - In the Lone Wolf series, and in some of the Fighting Fantasy series, you get to choose from a selection of skills and abilities. These choices will affect the outcome of the game as you cannot select all of them. The easiest way I can see to implement skills and abilities is to make the objects that fit into a container, with a limited capacity.

The next is random choices and random numbers, again I feel this should be easy to implement.

The last is combat. And this is where I am truly at a loss. Combat systems vary, but generally work with 2 stats, Skill and Stamina or Endurance (FF also allows Luck to be used if memory serves me correctly). In LW you subtract the enemies skill from yours, the result is the combat ratio. Then you pick a random number from the chart or roll 1D10 and consult a table. Find the column that represents the ratio then look down said column to find the endurance losses for both sides. In FF you take your skill, add the roll of 2D6 then take the opponents skill and add the roll of another 2D6, whichever is the highest wins that round and does a fixed amount of damage.

So thoughts - is this a worthwhile venture do you think (I should be able to reproduce LW in this format under the Project Aon licensing agreement if so). And how would you implement the Gamebook features?

Also, is there anything you think I have overlooked?

would you like to do this as a Quest gamebook or a Quest Text adventure?

Fighting Fantasy gamebooks and their combat systems are copyrighted and were republished since 2002/3 and are still being published now. Ian Livingstone, co-creator, is publishing a 30th Anniversary gamebook this August called Blood of the Zombies.

Maybe you could ask at http://fightingfantasy.com/ and see what they say since they allow you to write amateur gamebooks and have them published on their site.

The current Choose Your Own Adventure creator will only work for gamebooks if you ask the reader to get dice, a pencil and eraser and get them to write their fights, attribute scores and inventory on paper only. It could be done in Quest but the argument of random dice rolls by the computer within the game might lose the appeal of rolling the dice physically.

I have virtually all the original 59 Fighting Fantasy gamebooks, and the new ones since 2003, plus any spin-off books like Out of the Pit and Titan. Any questions about FF gamebooks and I could probably tell you something.

I've personally adapted the RPG The Riddling Reaver as a solo adventure and Scorpion Swamp as IF but are not going to publish without permission.

I actually have Lone Wolf Book 7 Castle Death. I never played it, but I was intrigued by the amount of stuff you could use and carry in the game. Beats the regular Choose Your Own Adventure Books or so it would seem. Anyway, I am using the Game Book to make my own game and although I am a noob I am not sure how much you can actually edit or do with it besides linking to other pages and having the option of having a pic or something. But I am also making a game using the Text Game and I know you can do practically anything with that IF you know how to script and or code. The same may be done with Game Book, but with all the questions I asked and suggestions I made, no one said I could. It is also a new system though so they may improve upon it. I am sure someone more familiar with the system or even the creator himself can shed better light on it. Sounds like a fun project provided the dice rolls and all feats and skills are handled by the computer and not me trying to use pen and paper and a calculator trying to factor in everything.

Pertex wrote:would you like to do this as a Quest gamebook or a Quest Text adventure?

Didn't know there was a GB option, but I was thinking of a TA.

cdutton184 wrote:Fighting Fantasy gamebooks and their combat systems are copyrighted and were republished since 2002/3 and are still being published now. Ian Livingstone, co-creator, is publishing a 30th Anniversary gamebook this August called Blood of the Zombies.

Maybe you could ask at http://fightingfantasy.com/ and see what they say since they allow you to write amateur gamebooks and have them published on their site.

The current Choose Your Own Adventure creator will only work for gamebooks if you ask the reader to get dice, a pencil and eraser and get them to write their fights, attribute scores and inventory on paper only. It could be done in Quest but the argument of random dice rolls by the computer within the game might lose the appeal of rolling the dice physically.

I have virtually all the original 59 Fighting Fantasy gamebooks, and the new ones since 2003, plus any spin-off books like Out of the Pit and Titan. Any questions about FF gamebooks and I could probably tell you something.

I've personally adapted the RPG The Riddling Reaver as a solo adventure and Scorpion Swamp as IF but are not going to publish without permission.

"... Fighting Fantasy gamebooks and their combat systems are copyrighted and were republished since 2002/3 and are still being published now. ..."

I appreciate that, and am looking to break anyones copyright rules - just looking to do something similar (or reproduce with permission)

"... the argument of random dice rolls by the computer within the game might lose the appeal of rolling the dice physically. ..."

True, but then Project Aon have several book readers, dice rollers and stat keepers for you to make use of. One of the best ones so far is Seventh Sense which even has alternative gameplay rules - VERY GOOD.

Also, a company called WorldWeaver is reproducing both LW and FF for the Kindle. However, they are using Kindle's "Active Content", and whilst the authors have signed worldwide licenses for their work (Well Joe Dever at least, he told me so himself!), Amazon is only releasing KAC to it's US customers. And has been like this for the last 2 years! And this takes care of all the dice roll, &c. When KAC is released in the UK, I will get a Kindle. Until then I will stick with hard copies.

TextingStories wrote:I actually have Lone Wolf Book 7 Castle Death. I never played it, but I was intrigued by the amount of stuff you could use and carry in the game. Beats the regular Choose Your Own Adventure Books or so it would seem. Anyway, I am using the Game Book to make my own game and although I am a noob I am not sure how much you can actually edit or do with it besides linking to other pages and having the option of having a pic or something. But I am also making a game using the Text Game and I know you can do practically anything with that IF you know how to script and or code. The same may be done with Game Book, but with all the questions I asked and suggestions I made, no one said I could. It is also a new system though so they may improve upon it. I am sure someone more familiar with the system or even the creator himself can shed better light on it. Sounds like a fun project provided the dice rolls and all feats and skills are handled by the computer and not me trying to use pen and paper and a calculator trying to factor in everything.

That is my view. I love the books, and have a dice roller on my mobile, but find it awkward trying to balance the book, character sheet an the dice/mobile.

I recently contacted Wizards about the ability to use the FF mechanics in a text adventure game, and was told that the only legal way to do that would be to purchase a license from them. In the case of gamebooks, the mechanics aren't actually built into the book so it would be fine in that case.

The only restriction in Quest's CYOA which could be incorporated into newer versions is that Fighting Fantasy Gamebooks use word/number puzzles a lot.

For example, you come a across a character earlier in the book and find out his name. The book asks you later have you met this character, so what is his name? The letters of his name are converted into their sequential values in the alphabet, i.e. A=1, B=2, C=3, etc. The numbers are added up (sometimes with extra values added or subtracted) and you turn to this new reference to play on.

So instead, if an input command for a word/number answer was incorporated into Quest's CYOA then compared to the right answer and linked to the right page then it would make it more versatile.

Nice idea, and should be easy to implement, so I've logged this for Quest 5.3: http://quest.codeplex.com/workitem/1098

sgreig wrote:I recently contacted Wizards about the ability to use the FF mechanics in a text adventure game, and was told that the only legal way to do that would be to purchase a license from them. In the case of gamebooks, the mechanics aren't actually built into the book so it would be fine in that case.

That is fair enough - I am only looking to do something in that "style", as there are many different ways of conducting battles etc, I was planning on making my own combat rules.

cdutton184 wrote:The only restriction in Quest's CYOA which could be incorporated into newer versions is that Fighting Fantasy Gamebooks use word/number puzzles a lot.

For example, you come a across a character earlier in the book and find out his name. The book asks you later have you met this character, so what is his name? The letters of his name are converted into their sequential values in the alphabet, i.e. A=1, B=2, C=3, etc. The numbers are added up (sometimes with extra values added or subtracted) and you turn to this new reference to play on.

So instead, if an input command for a word/number answer was incorporated into Quest's CYOA then compared to the right answer and linked to the right page then it would make it more versatile.

Alex wrote:Nice idea, and should be easy to implement, so I've logged this for Quest 5.3: http://quest.codeplex.com/workitem/1098

Excellent.

I agree, in the books you had to work out the section number. With a computer program, we could still have the user do that (as that could be a puzzle in and of itself, albeit a simple one for those good with mathematics), or we could just have them type the answer.

Carrot wrote:I agree, in the books you had to work out the section number. With a computer program, we could still have the user do that (as that could be a puzzle in and of itself, albeit a simple one for those good with mathematics), or we could just have them type the answer.

You are standing at the dusty and cracked bottom steps that leads to the throne of the King of the Barbarians. He is presently standing up and is at least 6 feet tall, but the many steps leading up to him, 10-12 in all, make him look even bigger and even more imposing than his usual awe inspiring self. The fire from the torches on the walls close to him make his already well chiseled and defined muscles shine with his sweat giving him an eerie sheen and a celestial presence about him and the light glints off his massive already blood stained double headed battle ax. The ax looks well worn from use, besides the actual obvious blood, you can see chips of the metal where it has seen battle from other weapons and probably a few skulls many many times. The handle it self looks well worn to his grip with the straps of leather for comfort seeming quite black from sweat and dirt and some pieces are hanging off dangling...

He looks annoyed with you... perhaps you should bow to him... he is the king after all...

[type bow] You bow and the king looks a little less threatening and sits down, his ax handle still gripped in his hand, but the bladed head is on the ground and the ax is leaning more against him than anything else.

He begins to speak and you listen, "Ahh... young one. I assume you have come to ask for my help. My aid must have sent you. What was his name? I can not be too sure in these trying times..."

You know his name, but you have to do mathematical calculations in order to tell him... You slip off your backpack and begin to pull out pen and paper. The King stands up to look at what you are doing, he does not look amused and even looks a little suspicious. You pay him no head as he leans over with the ax in his hands to see exactly what it is you could be possibly doing; are you ignoring him, did you have to write it down, or are you going for a hidden weapon!?! You dig a little deeper, moving odds and ends around and then you shout, “Ahhh Ha!!!!”, and pull out a brand new shiny calculator. You begin to type in numbers to calculate the answer when you hear a War Cry and look up at the last possible second to see the King of the Barbarians leap high into the air and come crashing down at you with his ax with the ugliest and meanest of expressions on his face. Your death was so quick you did not even register the pain, but your skull was completely sliced in half on through to your neck even to your upper chest cavity where it is now embedded. You are only still standing, because The King is still holding onto his ax. He puts his hefty right ragged boot to the lower part of your chest as he levers his massive ax from your head with a sickening squishy and crunchy sound... not that it matters... you can not hear it anyway... He pulls it out at the same time as he kicks your mutilated corpse into the wall behind you.

You are DEAD! The King of the Barbarians has no time for calculations and no patients for calculators or pen and paper. Please try again...



Suffice it to say, I think simply typing the answer would be the best and obvious choice...

TextingStories wrote:

"Carrot"

I agree, in the books you had to work out the section number. With a computer program, we could still have the user do that (as that could be a puzzle in and of itself, albeit a simple one for those good with mathematics), or we could just have them type the answer.

You are standing at the dusty and cracked bottom steps that leads to the throne of the King of the Barbarians. He is presently standing up and is at least 6 feet tall, but the many steps leading up to him, 10-12 in all, make him look even bigger and even more imposing than his usual awe inspiring self. The fire from the torches on the walls close to him make his already well chiseled and defined muscles shine with his sweat giving him an eerie sheen and a celestial presence about him and the light glints off his massive already blood stained double headed battle ax. The ax looks well worn from use, besides the actual obvious blood, you can see chips of the metal where it has seen battle from other weapons and probably a few skulls many many times. The handle it self looks well worn to his grip with the straps of leather for comfort seeming quite black from sweat and dirt and some pieces are hanging off dangling...

He looks annoyed with you... perhaps you should bow to him... he is the king after all...

[type bow] You bow and the king looks a little less threatening and sits down, his ax handle still gripped in his hand, but the bladed head is on the ground and the ax is leaning more against him than anything else.

He begins to speak and you listen, "Ahh... young one. I assume you have come to ask for my help. My aid must have sent you. What was his name? I can not be too sure in these trying times..."

You know his name, but you have to do mathematical calculations in order to tell him... You slip off your backpack and begin to pull out pen and paper. The King stands up to look at what you are doing, he does not look amused and even looks a little suspicious. You pay him no head as he leans over with the ax in his hands to see exactly what it is you could be possibly doing; are you ignoring him, did you have to write it down, or are you going for a hidden weapon!?! You dig a little deeper, moving odds and ends around and then you shout, “Ahhh Ha!!!!”, and pull out a brand new shiny calculator. You begin to type in numbers to calculate the answer when you hear a War Cry and look up at the last possible second to see the King of the Barbarians leap high into the air and come crashing down at you with his ax with the ugliest and meanest of expressions on his face. Your death was so quick you did not even register the pain, but your skull was completely sliced in half on through to your neck even to your upper chest cavity where it is now embedded. You are only still standing, because The King is still holding onto his ax. He puts his hefty right ragged boot to the lower part of your chest as he levers his massive ax from your head with a sickening squishy and crunchy sound... not that it matters... you can not hear it anyway... He pulls it out at the same time as he kicks your mutilated corpse into the wall behind you.

You are DEAD! The King of the Barbarians has no time for calculations and no patients for calculators or pen and paper. Please try again...



Suffice it to say, I think simply typing the answer would be the best and obvious choice...

A good argument, very well made

However, I did say

Carrot wrote:... or we could just have them type the answer.

That said, it may be easier to implement the numbers, to direct straight to the section in the short term. rather than have to translate text to the paragraph.