So I started thinking about my (unfinished) game.

The only verb listed on objects will be the "look at" verb ^{(with some exceptions in the first room to help the player out a bit)}.

What are your experiences with unlisted-verb-games in this day and age? Are they annoying?

I'm going for the very old school feel, like Kings Quest I, Larry I etc where everything needs to be typed (without too many hints as to which verbs will work). I'm starting to think that might be a bad thing? I don't want the player to give up right away.

I've added a gazillion commands and unlisted verbs to practically every object in the game so far to keep things interesting... but... still?

I'd very much appreciate to get some input from whomever on the matter.
Much obliged!

//cheese

I think the display verbs are a cheat. I don’t like them because when I play games with verbs listed, regardless of how I try to ignore them, I can always click and see what I can do with an object and that kind of spoils the puzzle. In X1, all display verbs were present. In X2, all display verbs were turned off. I like X2 far better.

With that said...
As the author, you must present appropriate clues in your text so not to frustrate the player and you must account for all verb possibilities. Example... you must loosen a bolt with a wrench. With a display verb, that’s easy. With no display verb, the player MUST type “loosen...” but should be able to type “use, turn, twist, spin, etc”. The writing is much more difficult. It’s a risk/reward type thing. Nothing sucks worse in a TA than a game of guess the verb. I’ve already run into players who get frustrated with X2 because they have the right idea but can’t figure the verbose of it all. I tried and for the most part I think it is okay, but it took a LOT of testing and constructive complaints to iron it all out.

My vote, no display verbs. I get into the habit of not even reading the text most of the time and just focusing on clicking. As a writer, isn’t it offensive when people stop reading what you worked so hard on??

@KV, yes, I KNOW I said “hard on” and I don’t care!! 😁

Thanks for your input XanMag!
And I must say I agree completely.

I'm working very hard not to turn it into a guess the verb game (by adding lots of alternative verbs), however, when it's time for beta testing (in maybe, oh I don't know, 23 years or so) I think I'll try to use RL friends at first so that I can record (using the walkthrough feature) their input and then analyze that data.
After that I'll try to find betatesters online.

Thanks again!

I would turn the display verbs off altogether. That is the "old school" way.

Also, I noticed that KV, in his most recent game, magically coded in a ‘view transcript’ feature so you can see/print/copy-paste all of your turns. This could be very helpful during beta-testing.

@The Pixe Damn straight!

@XanMag Really? I need to look into that, thanks!

Here's what the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy has to say about text adventures:

https://h2g2.com/edited_entry/A20600641

Did you know:

If you begin a command with *, it will be considered a beta-tester's note and ignored by the parser.

> attack the zombie
Error running script: Cannot foreach over your momma, as she is not a list!
The zombie attacks you.

* This game sucks

> l
You are in a bad game.
You can see a zombie.
You can go to Hell.
The zombie attacks you.

>

Use at your own risk, but this hasn't been tested by anyone:

https://github.com/KVonGit/QuestStuff/wiki/Transcripts

I guess I recommend using the "safer" version, but this hasn't been tested by anyone, either:

https://github.com/KVonGit/QuestStuff/wiki/Transcripts#an-alternative-to-js-dialog

I don't like it when games have unlisted verbs. Sometimes people leave clues, so I'm okay with that, but sometimes there are no clues, which I am not okay with.

I made a book object in one of my games. When read, it messages different commands you could enter in the game (eventually....) "Command patterns to type; Heal Oran Berry object, Heal Sitrus Berry object, Rest object, Purchase object, Sell object, Look at object, access object, egress object, Check object, Scan object, talk to object, speak to object, ask blank about blank, Give Hat to object".

Verb guessing can seem a little frustrating.

I remember a text adventure we played when we were kids, on the Commodore 16. (Which had a huge 16k RAM, including a 3.7k of resident drivers for the disk and tape devices)

You get stuck in 3 rooms in a cave. There's a door at one end, and a lever at the other, but as soon as you leave the lever room, it resets. As well as a load of other objects (all of which we already knew the use of), we'd found a small pile of rocks. The whole family tried for years (literally; we'd fire up the game, with a load time of 66 minutes from tape), explore, do all the bits we knew how to do (taking about an hour), then get stuck in that cave.

All commands were either "verb

The most annoying thing is that if you put "jam lever" it says "What with?" ... but "Jam lever with rocks" gives the same response because it ignores extra words at the end of the line.
"Wedge lever with rocks" → "Commands should be of the form (verb) (noun)"
"Wedge lever" → "What with?"
"Wedge rocks in lever" → "You can't do that here"
"Wedge rocks" → "Where?"
"Drop rocks" → "OK"
"Wedge lever" → "What with?"
"Pull lever" → "You hear a distant grinding sound"
"Wedge lever" → "You force the rocks into the lever, to stop it from moving"

Turns out the valid sequence was "Wedge lever", while the rocks are on the ground, on the turn immediately after pulling the lever.

There was another game where "Kick chect" gives you "The chest flies open!". Whereas "Kick (anything else)" gives the response "I do not know the word 'kick'."

The problem with verb guessing is that you have to work out both what to do, and how to say it.
I think that a verbs list is better than this. It might sometimes give clues, but that's better than requiring the player to have a thesaurus.

So my thoughts:

• If you don't have displayverbs:
  • Use a thesaurus. If there's more than one way to say the same thing, make sure they all work.
• With displayverbs:
  • Put them everywhere. If you have to lick a toad in order to solve some puzzle, then make sure there is a "lick" verb on every object that you could reasonably be expected to lick.
  • Make verbs for things that the player might reasonably be expected to do, so the ones that are the answer don't stand out so much. Maybe try to aim for a fixed 6 verbs per object, with 1-4 of them just displaying a funny message.
  • That way, trying every verb on every object is a time consuming last resort, and it's easier to actually think about the puzzle.
  • If there are displayverbs, don't make a puzzle where the answer isn't one of them. That's an interface screw. If you have to, then at least give the player a clue to make it clear they need to guess verbs.
• Maybe try Monkey Island style?
  • The original Monkey Island has a command panel, and no other verbs. "Open/Close/Push/Pull/Use/Look at/Talk to/Walk to/Pick up/Turn on/Turn off/Give". That's 12 options; enough that players are unlikely to try doing everything to everything unless really desperate.
  • Or maybe plan out the whole game. Once you know all the verbs that are going to be necessary, put them in a command pane. It's less of a "clue" than displayverbs, because it doesn't tell you which ones apply to which objects.
    • For the "wedge lever" puzzle, having a "wedge" verb visible from the start would have still made it obvious. But then, it was obvious what you're supposed to do, just not how to communicate that to the game.
• Another thought: Instead of verb guessing, can you do the puzzle with the existing commands? "Put rocks on lever" could have worked, and doesn't give a clue.

Lots of interesting input here. Thanks guys!

Did you know:

If you begin a command with *, it will be considered a beta-tester's note and ignored by the parser.

I did not know that and I can't say I fully understand it.
Where does the note go? Am I missing something here?

Quest just ignores it, and it's printed to the screen.

If you don't print or copy the game's output to a file, it's worthless.

You can print everything displayed in the game with JS.print().

@K.V.
So it's possible for a beta tester to test it online, add notes with * and then email an output file to me where I can see the notes?

Mmm... They'd have to put forth a little extra effort, but yes.

The best way (I think) would be to include my transcript code, which shows all the game text, even stuff that's been cleared, which may create a new problem. Sometimes we don't notice what's being cleared, and it is surprising to see it in a transcript!!!

Anyway, with the transcript stuff, they could print a transcript to a PDF, then send that to you.

Alternatively, they could copy all the text and paste it to you.

mrangel came up with some code that allowed online users to save a transcript directly to a file, but it doesn't work in the desktop player.

I came up with some code that allowed desktop users to save transcripts directly to files, but it doesn't work in the online player.

(Yes. I curse quite frequently. However did you guess?)

As far as bug-reporting, you can do stuff like this, too:

http://textadventures.co.uk/forum/samples/topic/j9evupa4h0c6ua7_bh9twa/reporting-a-bug-from-in-game-via-email-an-example

...but the player has to have set up their browser to automatically open their email when clicking a mailto link, the odds of which are a coin toss.

Notice how everyone who took the time to type a response prefers to type while playing a parser?

Crazy, huh?

I'm thinking the clickers aren't giving you any feedback, good sir. (I also think the majority of the players are clickers, but this is just a theory, based upon the most popular games on this site.)

you can always script in help/hint/cheat features/systems into your game, for either guessing verbs and/or for solving puzzles and/or game progression (where/what to do next), regardless of whether you choose your game design to be: typing/clicking/both and/or know-the-verb/guess-the-verb/both-depending

@K.V. I noticed that too... but I decided to take their lack of replies as a sign that most people type. Well, no, not really. But I have decided to go without the verb links (except for the beginning of the game). I'm working super hard on covering all eventualities + when beta testing I think I'll get great insight as to what people are actually typing which in turn will help me add more verbs/commands etc.

@hegemonkhan Check! =) So far I have a general help, interface help and a hint system in place.

I'm not sure if Quest is saving my life or ruining it to be honest. I've stopped playing games altogether, stopped playing instruments, stopped all other projects I've been working on. Except for spending time with my family I'm in Quest... non stop.
That's how much fun I'm having!

I think it depends upon the type/design of the game too... than on people's preferences... I think people can handle typing and/or using a mouse (clicking) just fine...

I personally prefer typing as it's the easiest (when only a few typed characters/numbers), though using the mouse can be good too, to slow down your movement (as it takes more time to move a mouse), so not sure which is better to do, for arithritis/carpal-tunnel-syndrome, less but more frequent movement or more movement but less frequently, lol.

but really, it depends on the type/design of the game, some types/designs of games work well with typing, some horribly not so, and it's the same for clicking (mouse movement), as well as for guessing-the-verb and knowing-the-verb

it's really a matter just of game quality... does everything work smoothly and seamlessly... for your game?

Well, to be honest, I don't really know. I'm so up in it at the moment. I think it does... work seamlessly and smoothly... but... I really can't say.
Maybe I should let someone play it and ask their opinion.

I'm not sure if Quest is saving my life or ruining it to be honest. I've stopped playing games altogether, stopped playing instruments, stopped all other projects I've been working on. Except for spending time with my family I'm in Quest... non stop.

Worry not. Soon, you will learn to work well with audio. Then, you'll have to play your own instruments.

As far as playing games goes... Yeah. I'm glad I played all the Infocom titles before I found Quest, for I am in the same boat as you.

Heehee... very true! I can't wait to score the game! That will be a blast!
The best thing- hands down - is that my wife thinks it's totally cool that I'm sitting with quest around the clock for some reason. If I played Diablo III for 30 min that was the end of the world.... but 10 hours of quest: cool!
I'm a very happy camper!

I'm making an old school guess the verb game also. I have twice had friends play through what I have so far, and just made notes of all the things they tried to do. It was really helpful because they tried to solve puzzles in ways that logically should work, but I hadn't even thought of.

One of the things that I like about not having a verb list is that you can let a player solve a puzzle in a multitude of ways with varying descriptions (even If the end result is the same). I want the player to feel like they accomplished something, and that they are rewarded for being creative. That said, I have been pretty obsessive about indicating a verb that will work, and have incorporated a hint system.

Cool J_J! Looking forward to play yours, how far along are you?

I'm almost done with mine, I expect to release it in about 425 years.

...so not almost done? Or it will need a lot of editing? I just started the 2nd 3rd of my game. It is going slowly. Ha. I'm aiming to get it done with enough time before ifcomp for beta testing... But that might be being overly optimistic.

Personally, I don't fancy the map or the panes. Especially the map. In fact, if a game includes a map, I'll open the HTML tools and enter $('gridPanel').hide();$('#gamePanelSpacer').height('0') to get that big distraction off of my screen.

The panes don't get in my way, but they're just a big, fat way to cheat. Just sitting there. Tempting me...

The links are just like the panes. They say, "click me, you lazy gamer! Just look at my menu! You won't even have to use your powers of deduction!"

You know what part of the panes I do like, though? The compass! I love the compass! It is definitely my friend!

Having said all that, I will point out that I'm 40. I like Infocom games. I enjoy being tortured, getting killed for no reason, finding out I rendered the game unwinnable 2 years ago, having to guess the verb sometimes (when the responses to unsuccessful commands are entertaining and/or helpful), and all of that jazz.

In my day, a short text adventure only took 2 weeks to complete. Of course, in my day, Microsoft was just starting to teach people how to point and click in a GUI to do things. I remember the Windows 95 commercial. "Look! I'm computing!"

Anyway, I classify Quest games as "Quest adventures". They're not really standard text adventures, and they're not technically hypertext fiction (as far as I can discern).

My theory is that the people who play Quest games want games which last about 2 hours, and they want to be able to click their way through the game. Many are playing online, and I assume that most online players are using smart devices. (Have you ever played a parser on a smart device? I have. It sucks after a short while. The ability to click makes the games playable in this format.)

a hint system

I recommend you follow J_J's lead on this, Cheese.

...or at least make a text file with hints and clues.

In my experience, players frequently get stuck on puzzles the author believes to be easy. In fact, if an author thinks a puzzle is easy, they tend to provide fewer hints. Thinking, 'no need to write all of that. This puzzle is a breeze!'

Yeah... No. You should assume a player may need help with any given puzzle. Assume we are dumb and lazy. (I admit that I'm dumb or lazy, but I refuse to specify which one.)

I think it depends upon the type/design of the game too...

I agree. I have various works in progress, some use the panes on the right, but no command bar. Other have a command bar but no panes on the rightm (actually I might have both whilst developing, but I know if it ever is released it will just have one and I know which one). It depends on the game. But you have to design the game - and puzzles especially - around that.

you have to design the game - and puzzles especially - around that.

Yep!

I want the player to feel like they accomplished something

Something only a parser can deliver, in my case. Like XM said, I'll wind up clicking through a game that has links and/or panes without even bothering to read the text after a certain point. (Even Robin Johnson's later games. And that's just blasphemous!)

No display verbs, plenty of in-text clues especially on verb possibilities, and a built in hint system = best text adventure game possible. My two cents.

I like to put descriptions in the 'look at' response that definitely give clues on its use.

Example, 'talk to juju man' yields 'The Juju Man glares at you. He points at you with a bony finger of one hand and points to the largest tombstone with the finger of the other hand. He clasps his hands together as if in prayer and closes his eyes. He opens them and goes about his ritual, ignoring you.

Or a chair... 'It's a chair... White seat with grey legs on which it stands, all plastic. Not much more to it than that. The chair is currently standing by the table.'

Or a wrench... 'It's metal with a corkscrew thumb thread at the top for widening or narrowing the wrench head. You could probably widen or narrow the wrench if you want to adjust it. It's currently set to use on a bigger bolt.'

I like to use italics to draw subtle attention to a word and the possible verbs (as you can tell if you read that). It rewards people for reading all my hard work. I know it isn't a LOT different than display verbs but it feels better. =)

hint wrench

Vague:Should be able to find enough in the description, right?

Spoon fed: Why the din? Lou sends his best regards. Perhaps a bolt from the blue would help?

If it was a snake...: Loosen wrench or widen wrench and find something to use it on, like a bolt. Find a good "thinking spot".

Obviously, that's a bit oversimplified, but that's kind of how I like my hints on verbs.

And, I KNOW I need to use a better hint system. That's from X2. I'll steal more of KVs skills for X3. =)

I never thought about that. "hint [object name]". My hint system is based on ever changing attributes set when things have been done (or not) so you type "hint" at any time and the game will deliver a relevant hint for the situation the player is in atm. This process can be repeated three times (per 'situation') .
I'm thinking about (down the road) creating a similar system but for the achievements if one would want to collect them all and... well, need hints.

(quote from K.V.)
My theory is that the people who play Quest games want games which last about 2 hours, and they want to be able to click their way through the game. Many are playing online, and I assume that most online players are using smart devices. (Have you ever played a parser on a smart device? I have. It sucks after a short while. The ability to click makes the games playable in this format.)

Lets hope there's other players out there or my game won't be liked by anyone :D

My game will be long and require lots of typing. It's not possible to click through it.
Also it'll be quite difficult... at least I think so.

I'm starting to think I should go look for pre alpha testers.

My theory is based on feedback on this site, and there's really not much feedback concerning this. If you look through the most popular games, most of them are click-throughs.

I prefer the type of game you're making, Cheese. (Just for the record.)

If you want people who love serious parsers to play your game, I advise posting a link to it on IFDB. Be prepared, though, because the chances of someone playing a Quest game seem to be quite slim, as far as I can tell, unless the game is entered in some sort of IF competition.

Alternatively, the chances of people on this site playing straight-up parser games seems to be slim, too.

I may be missing something, though. I've only been around here for a year.

You, KV, are not missing a thing.

Smut, Vore, and Warrior Cats get the plays. Dumb. Quality games tend to go relatively unnoticed. IFDB seems pretty dead to me. Lots of posts/reviews but they seem to be from the same couple people.

I wish MathBrush would review Pixie's Quest. (That's the main person reviewing games on IFDB. No mercy at all from MathBrush!)

To be fair I don't play parcers on my phone because it's horrible, and depending on the type of narrative I think having listed or limited verbs can work better. I really liked how tight the wizard sniffer was. Also, to anyone reading this thread, write about whatever your heart wants to ;) ha. We're all just doing this for fun.

I do have some concerns that I will have spent thousands of hours on an old school parcer that no one will play. Oh well ¯\ _(ツ)_/¯

Well J_J... Worry not!
Reading this thread it seems you'll have K.V. and me playing your game at the very least.

And now I'm expecting both of you to not only play my game but to thoroughly enjoy it too!

O/’ high five