...how do we get a good title screen image for our game? Is it acceptable to just grab something from Google and hope the artist doesn't notice or care?

Marzipan wrote:Is it acceptable to just grab something from Google and hope the artist doesn't notice or care?

Yes. Next question.

That's what I figured since I've seen plenty of games do it, but just wanted to double check.

Though I think it'll still feel a little weird plastering something all over the internet with some random person's art attached...I guess artists aren't as sensitive about that kind of thing as writers though and probably used to it.

Marzipan wrote:That's what I figured since I've seen plenty of games do it, but just wanted to double check.

Though I think it'll still feel a little weird plastering something all over the internet with some random person's art attached...I guess artists aren't as sensitive about that kind of thing as writers though and probably used to it.

I said it was acceptable, not legal

Morally, it's down to you how you feel about it, but I just can't imagine the artist of some random image you find on the net is going to see you've used their image and go to the trouble of contacting (whoever) demanding it be removed.

well... you can legally do it... until you get a 'cease and desist' or a court order to show up (due to getting sued), hehe
(everything is legal until you're caught and punished; you can do whatever you want until someone or a group of people, stops you, lol)

------

legally, you can only use the 'public domain' materials, as everything else is proprietary (someone's intellectual~artistic~media property)

...how do we get a good title screen image for our game? Is it acceptable to just grab something from Google and hope the artist doesn't notice or care?

Legal, no. Acceptable... that depends on you. The original image I had for my game was a lovely painting of an old man I had found. It was tagged as public domain, but when I contacted the poster, they said it was a photograph of a painting they had purchased and they couldn't vouch for its copyright. So don't trust even what people say unless they explicitly give it a good license. I was disappointed, but I couldn't go with it. It felt like tarnish.

If you care...

I did enough to go out and take my own cover photo. I know that's not always possible, but it worked for me.

I'm sure you can sense from the above what my take on the subject is.

If you want a very good image for your game and the licence to use it just trawl a stock image site such as shutterstock or pond5 and buy one. Obviously that involves putting your hand in your pocket but they're not always as expensive as you might think. I'm lucky in that I have a mate who earns his dough by designing book covers. They're slightly more expensive as it involves the stock image license AND his adding of typography. I suppose I should see if I can get away with plugging him.

www.goonwrite.com

Another option is to search for images on flickr where they have a licence for non-commercial use or whatever. Be aware that 'copy-left' type licences usually dicatate what licence you put on your own game. This puts it off bounds for me because I use audio that I don't have a licence to distribute - only as part of a work - so I can't end up open sourcing or anything like that afaik.

Jay, you appear to have written your reply inside Marzipan's post.

From my own experience: do not use any images for which you have no rights. It will be expensive if the rights holder sues you

I fixed whatever the heck it was I did this morning. (Perhaps I hit the edit button instead of the quote one.) That does explain why whenever I submitted my response, I never saw it at the bottom...

Pertex wrote:From my own experience: do not use any images for which you have no rights. It will be expensive if the rights holder sues you

Yes, also if you're posting your game here on textadventures.co.uk, I'm probably going to be the one that has to deal with any take-down requests, so please don't put the entire site in jeopardy because you're too lazy to use a legal image.

OurJud wrote:

"Marzipan"

That's what I figured since I've seen plenty of games do it, but just wanted to double check.

Though I think it'll still feel a little weird plastering something all over the internet with some random person's art attached...I guess artists aren't as sensitive about that kind of thing as writers though and probably used to it.

I said it was acceptable, not legal

Morally, it's down to you how you feel about it, but I just can't imagine the artist of some random image you find on the net is going to see you've used their image and go to the trouble of contacting (whoever) demanding it be removed.

Most request a credit at the very least. And even the ones who can't afford a team of lawyers (most of them) to pursue their claims can make trouble in other ways for people using their work without permission.

After thinking about it, yeah, I think I'll have to go with some other option. I've used random GIS stuff on a CYOA before, but...and maybe it's a weird distinction to make...I feel like there's a difference between a story that exists entirely on a web site and a file that can be downloaded and (theoretically) passed around.

If I get a nice sunshiny day off I can always take my camera out and get some nature pics, or look into stock photos like Silver suggested. (BTW I first read the url of that site you linked as 'goon write'. I'll definitely keep it in mind if I ever finish my fantasy novel, but I am extremely poor right now and can't afford to shell out that much for an IF game only like three people may ever play...)

So I guess I can figure something out for the title screen, though character art is something I'd love to include that I suppose I'll just have to do without. Even if I was going for the 'rip from Google' method, it can be difficult enough as it is finding fantasy art of women that isn't ridiculously oversexualized, trying to find pics that also a good match for my characters might actually be impossible. Commissioning some from somebody on deviantart is all I can think of, but then again we run into the 'extremely poor' problem.

I used to be able to paint and draw in high school. I wasn't great or even good, mind you, but it was...passable. Especially if you started off with a big pic and scanned and shrunk it way way down. Kind of sad now I let whatever meager artistic skills I had completely atrophy.

Marzipan wrote:(BTW I first read the url of that site you linked as 'goon write'. ...)

He's a bit of a joker...

Marzipan wrote:So I guess I can figure something out for the title screen, though character art is something I'd love to include that I suppose I'll just have to do without. Even if I was going for the 'rip from Google' method, it can be difficult enough as it is finding fantasy art of women that isn't ridiculously oversexualized, trying to find pics that also a good match for my characters might actually be impossible. Commissioning some from somebody on deviantart is all I can think of, but then again we run into the 'extremely poor' problem.

If you find someone's whose work you like you could perhaps ask if they'd like to illustrate your work. I mean, there's something in it for them too as it takes their work to a wider audience beyond being one amongst another trillion other great artists on Deviantart. Something else to add to their CV.

Not that I'm encouraging theft in any way shape or form, but this forum has less than half a dozen regular posters. If that's an indication of how many people play IFs on this site, I'd day say the chances of the artwork you use for your game, being seen by the artist, are somewhere around zero.

The indication of how many people who play IF on this site is better indicated by the number of plays/downloads by the side of the games. So that's 35,500 in the case of First Times. But then there's people who will have visited the site and seen the artwork if not played that particular game. To have the full overview you'd need access to data such as the amount of unique page impressions the site generates a day. I thought Alexa gave stats such as that but it doesn't appear to. And then it doesn't need to be seen by the artist themself, just someone who is aware of their work.

Funnily enough, my mate (who does the book covers) discovered that someone was selling on his work recently. They were caught by their sheer brass neck. Not only were they advertising his work at a higher price, but they were mirroring his site (they needed to see when things were sold etc) and using his bandwidth. This is what got them caught as he would have access to that information. They were also an employee of a large and reputable company as opposed to someone chancing their arm which worked out well for my friend as the company director wasn't too chuffed about the prospect of legal action.

It's not a matter of the number of visitors, Google (and others) is caching all images. So if you search pictures for "spondre"e.g. you get a picture of Jay and the start picture of the game (and a link to Emily Short's Blog where the game is mentioned. Congratulation, Jay! You did it! '). It's not a problem to search a specific picture in the internet.

But the picture would be cached as the game title rather than be descriptive of the picture, unless the picture carries meta data which, tbf, I have no clue if it does or not.

OurJud wrote:Not that I'm encouraging theft in any way shape or form, but this forum has less than half a dozen regular posters. If that's an indication of how many people play IFs on this site, I'd day say the chances of the artwork you use for your game, being seen by the artist, are somewhere around zero.

For me it's not so much a question of "What is the likelihood I'll get away with it" as much as is it the right or wrong thing to do. And my concern isn't so much the original artist seeing it as much as people in the IF community (in particular) whose opinion I wish to solicit going "Well, it's a decent game, but the author seems to have no compunction about stealing other's work." In other words... it ain't right.

So for me, I'm just not going to go there.

Silver wrote:But the picture would be cached as the game title rather than be descriptive of the picture, unless the picture carries meta data which, tbf, I have no clue if it does or not.

You don't need to know game title or meta data for this. Just go to Googles picture search and upload the picture you want to search in the internet. Google finds all sites where this (and similar) picture is found

I had no idea that could be done!

But isn't the fact that there is to be no financial gain whatsoever a factor?

The way I see it, you've searched google for a particular type of image, and then used it for the cover of some inconsequential text adventure game played by a very small percentage of the world.

If I were an artist and chanced upon my artwork being used for the cover of one of these games, I'd feel nothing more than complimented.

However, this thread has pricked my conscience a little, and I will now be including a credit of some sort (if I can even find the image again and THEN discover the true owner)

Well what if the artist/photographer planned on monetising the image? If it's already been used on a text adventure then that might alter its value, regardless of whether you've monetised your game or not. Intellectual property is a minefield. It is always best to check first. If it is under a creative commons type licence (of the type you can use the work for free) you're usually still obligated to provide a credit AND publish your own work under the same licence.

Silver wrote:Well what if the artist/photographer planned on monetising the image? If it's already been used on a text adventure then that might alter its value, regardless of whether you've monetised your game or not.

Mmm, a minefield, as you say. It has to be said, though, that the majority of the time, finding - not to mention contacting - the artist is nigh on impossible.

I'll be very bogged off if I can't use the image I've picked, as I spent quite some time incorporating the game's title into the image.

Also, I find it slightly odd that the general consensus when I started a thread about using Red Dwarf as an idea for an IF, was to go for it. What's the difference?

This is why you should use somewhere like flickr for image searches (for creative commons licensed stuff) or a stock site rather than google image search.

OurJud wrote:Also, I find it slightly odd that the general consensus when I started a thread about using Red Dwarf as an idea for an IF, was to go for it. What's the difference?

It's a jud-ment call, and I just go by instinct, so don't take my word for it. But pieces of this might help: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use

In particular, these stood out for me:

To prevent the private ownership of work that rightfully belongs in the public domain, facts and ideas are separate from copyright—only their particular expression or fixation merits such protection.

The key part there is that someone's work of an art is their *expression* of an idea. But doing fan fic about Red Dwarf would be your expression of an idea. (That's only rough, though, and fan fic seems to be tolerated largely. People have sued over the use of characters, for example, in for-profit situations.)

The third factor assesses the quantity or percentage of the original copyrighted work that has been imported into the new work. In general, the less that is used in relation to the whole, ex: a few sentences of a text for a book review, the more likely that the sample will be considered fair use.

If you take an artist's image, you're basically incorporating the entire thing into something of yours. Whereas taking the characters and setup of a TV show and then creating your own piece from it is taking a small subset and then adding your own to it. (Of course, again, it helps that you're not selling it.)

Naturally, that could all be crap. lol

For me, it's more of a personal thing. For example, when an author creates a story, copyright is automatically assigned. You don't need to apply for it. That, in concept, means that you as the creator get to say how *your work* is used. It's not just a monetary thing. Money need not enter into it. It's about you being able to say how what you create is used or not used by others. It's *yours* and you get to say. Since I've written a number of stories and poems and things, that's incredibly important to me. It's a right that I cherish, that someone can't just come and take what I've done and do whatever they want with it. (Not that I would probably mind... But it's the principle of the thing.)

For me, using something that I don't have the right to is like going into someone's home and walking off with an item. Maybe they won't miss it. Maybe they don't need it. So "no victim". Maybe I need it more than they do. But it's still not something I could or would do, because it violates the principle.

And if I violate that for someone else, who's to say that I could then object when or if someone does it to me?

On the image front, I was really wedded to this image I had found for spondre. I was a bit heartbroken when I decided I couldn't use it. It seemed *perfect*. But my other image worked out ok, as well.

So, if you do decide to use something else, at least know that it will work out ok.

jaynabonne wrote:So, if you do decide to use something else, at least know that it will work out ok.

Yes. I dare say I could find something on one of the stock sites Silver talks about, but I really like the one I've created. Ah well, we shall see.

OurJud wrote:Also, I find it slightly odd that the general consensus when I started a thread about using Red Dwarf as an idea for an IF, was to go for it. What's the difference?

Fanfiction and fanart are still your own work, and by definition you can't really do either without acknowledging what it's a homage to or where your inspiration came from. The creators of the borrowed setting are also both aware that this goes on and for the most part okay with it. When they're not okay with it it's usually in the case of an individual creator, I honestly can't remember ever hearing about a company ever caring.

I have no idea of the legality of it all and I think even its weight as a moral issue varies from person to person, I just know that even though I love looking at fantasy and sci-fi art and keep huge folders full of it on my computer, actually making it a part of my own work without asking and crediting the author has always felt slightly shady to me (or at the very least unprofessional) which is why I brought the topic up in the first place.

Again, maybe artists aren't as sensitive about this kind of thing as writers are, but I imagine if I randomly stumbled across one of my stories, only with parts of it changed and all credit removed, I would probably have steam coming out of my ears and be absolutely willing to wind up on the evening news if I could only find out where the person responsible lived.

Anyway, update on my dilemma: after regretfully passing up a PERFECT picture on shutterstock.com because they were just a little too pricey, I came across fotolia.com and it seems I can get something like a dozen reasonably okay pictures for $15. Just have to figure out how to add some fancy text and I'm golden.

Marzipan wrote:...I guess artists aren't as sensitive about that kind of thing as writers though and probably used to it.

As a graphic designer, and someone who has many friends who are graphic designers, artists and photographers I can tell you they are very sensitive about this type of thing, and they will issue takedown notices if they find it. There are lots of free stock image sites (morguefile, sxc.hu, etc.) and commercial ones (most images cost $1 or less unless you need super high-resolution images, which you wouldn't for this case).

The only real loophole to this (and I can't remember where in copyright law it's stated, but I have seen it with my own eyes) is that if you alter an image by more than 80%, it's different enough from the original image to be considered a new work and therefore you're not in any violation - so that works well for someone like me who would do some heavy photoshop editing, but this also likely would not apply in your case.

But this is precisely why I heavily watermark any of my images that get posted on the internet, because it makes them functionally useless to anyone who might try to use it without my permission.

Speaking of which, if anyone needs advice on such matters, or wants some graphic design work done feel free to hit me up.

sgreig wrote:

"Marzipan"

...I guess artists aren't as sensitive about that kind of thing as writers though and probably used to it.

As a graphic designer, and someone who has many friends who are graphic designers, artists and photographers I can tell you they are very sensitive about this type of thing, and they will issue takedown notices if they find it.

Well, I stand corrected then, and it does make sense that most people would feel that way about their work, whichever form it takes. Though--even if it's all the same legally--seeing how images are used on the internet, it's always seemed like there's a difference in the reaction to someone using original art produced by an individual and art produced for a company, or in art produced by a professional vs a hobbyist. Companies by and large know there are people using their copyrighted art and don't care enough to stop them, hobbyists are likely not always aware that their art's being used, but would likely have something to say about it if they did, while it's the individual who creates professional art who seems the most aware and most protective of how their work is being used...and with good reason since they have the most to lose.

Bluh. Anyway, I'm rambling. Must sleep.

Speaking of which, if anyone needs advice on such matters, or wants some graphic design work done feel free to hit me up.

Though I'd be careful saying something like this, because I'm sure something like 80% of the members on the site would be willing to take you up on it.

Here's some views from around the web:

"I have reported it when it when [users] steal my images, and Instagram will eventually remove but no further action is taken," Rettke said Tuesday. "It's hard to track down every single one. Some even put their trademark over others' images."

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/u ... len-photos

Before I get into how to go about using the tools, let me explain why am I interested in finding out who is using my images: By default all my photographs come with a Creative Commons Noncommercial license. That means that any and all of my images may be used for personal, noncommercial use, all you have to do is link back to me. I use these tools to help me discover any commercial entities that may be using my image in violation of the Creative Commons license.

http://chrismartino.com/2012/01/how-to- ... en-photos/

Financial and legal complications aside, I hope you understand that you’ve taken away my personal voice and ownership as a fellow content creator. Without my permission or knowledge, you’ve taken my work out of context to use for your own agenda, leaving me no control over how my work is seen or used. I found myself surprised to be incidentally supporting and endorsing a campaign I had no prior knowledge about.

Content is gifted, donated, licensed, commissioned, and purchased. It should NOT be stolen.

http://cowkitty.net/post/78808973663/yo ... r-to-anita

That last quote is very profound and hard to argue with. It alone has made me reconsider how I use other people's images.

Yeah, I'm saving that last post for future use.

I'm probably outing myself as some kind of embarrassingly dorky ubernerd here, but years ago I would hang out at one of those roleplaying chat sites. It was the accepted norm there for everyone to grab a piece of art they liked off the internet and write up some long ridiculous bio about the character. Some of them, though... ...well, I don't even want to go into too much detail here, but the internet being what it is I think you can imagine. I would always wonder just what the artist would think about their character being used that way, if they only knew.

For instance, this pic here:



...I don't know if that's an official image for some anime character, or just grabbed off of some poor suckers deviantart page or what, but holy crap did that one get around, sometimes with some bad photoshops of flames around her or weird eyes. For awhile it became an in-joke there with people making parody profiles using it and such.

I kind of want to go and see if that site is still around, but then again, given the direction it was going when I left (the furries had found us), I'm kind of scared too...

Linking to an image from a forum is kinda different though. As you're not using it for your own work or passing it off as your own work. Some people can be uptight about that too though if you link direct from their site and hence use their bandwidth.

People don't just link pictures though, the way they escape from their author and out into the wilds is one person looking at the source, going 'oh nice picture!' and saving it. Then they use it somewhere and somebody copies it from them, and so on and so on. Even if the first person bothers to credit it, by the tenth or eleventh no one has any idea anymore where it came from. I've seen pictures with the author's name or initials literally chopped off...it's not even that people are trying to pass it off as their own work, they just don't want somebody's signature ruining the image of their character they've written 12 pages of elaborate history for. It would never even enter their mind that what they're doing is wrong.

Oh, and to get back to my quest for a title image, this is the one I've found that I most adore. There are some really amazing photos on that site, makes me want to buy a new camera and go for a long walk. Fotolia is okay too, and definitely cheaper, but it tends more towards CGI, and some of it is pretty bad...

I have a number of photos I've taken of things like the one you posted - nature areas, trees, etc. They don't have that particular ground color, but they're still nice. If anyone ever needs an image... Perhaps we should start an "I have artwork/need artwork" thread.

It was the great colors in combination with the fairy circle I was most impressed with. Since the game is about fairies. (Meaning it's very unlikely anyone will actually play it! )

But yeah, I could see a thread like that coming in handy.

Nice pic. I thought your game was Sci-Fi...

I have two games I'm working on, actually. The fantasy one started as a test game just to get a handle on using Quest and will likely be finished first. It's got a larger map, but the mechanics behind it all are extremely simple. The other is set on a space station and will handle more advanced things like relationships with NPCs.

I offer you free help with youre title pic problem if you want.
My work is done by me, and (if) i use other resources, they will be from the public domain or by you e.g. pics taken by you.
This way you can use it in youre game and neither you nor the website-owner has to worry about legal stuff and can focus on making good adventures.

What i can do for you:

-Build a scene in 3D and render it, examples here: http://forum.textadventures.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=5022

-Many things possible with photoshop Examples here: https://fotos.web.de/ui/external/ZFGf9X ... NnZrg11503

-traditional paintings/drawings (i dont do the wacom thing anymore) in watercolour, Acrylic or Oils...examples of my stuff here: https://fotos.web.de/ui/external/NJgGAF ... _9AwA11503

What i can not do:
-character creation, toon-style, manga-style or so. i prefer it to be realistic, but this includes all kind of moods (like spooky) and semi-realistic.

I dont know what you have in mind for youre adventure, but for the background a collage of phantasy-like world parts could get you something. And if -at all- you need figures there are also solutions. in photoshop only or maybe painted.
Just contact me.