Well, I do. But I think I use them incorrectly but don't understand why.

Which statement is correct:

You walk along a tree-lined street.

Or

You walk along a tree lined-street.

I would use the former but I think it should be the latter but don't have the understanding to know why.

It's the former.

The base sentence is "You walk along a street." You can add an adjective, in this case "tree-lined". You would not have "You walk along a lined-street." So the hyphen definitely doesn't go there.

I look at "tree-lined" as being a single unit, in this case describing "street".

More: http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictio ... tree-lined

jaynabonne wrote:It's the former.

The base sentence is "You walk along a street." You can add an adjective, in this case "tree-lined". You would not have "You walk along a lined-street." So the hyphen definitely doesn't go there.

I look at "tree-lined" as being a single unit, in this case describing "street".

The former makes sense to me. However I'm sure I've read it as the latter which has always confused me. I did terribly at school (allegedly because I'm clever the mind boggles) and my English skills come largely from the internets [sic].

I always thought the hyphen was to make sense of the syntax. Perhaps that's a bad example (I'm good at doing that).

You can have houses in a line. They are perfectly aligned. So they are aligned houses.

But are they perfectly-aligned houses or perfectly aligned-houses?

And why not perfectly aligned houses (no hyphen)?

(I should read that link).

think of hyphens as connecting two adjectives and/or adverbs that can be understood as a single word~phrase, but if they aren't able to be understood as a single word, then don't use hyphens. You do NOT use hyphens to connect with nouns.

so, using your example:

silver wrote:But are they perfectly-aligned houses or perfectly aligned-houses?

'houses' is a noun, so NO hyphen on~with it: aka, so no for: 'perfectly aligned-houses'

whereas, 'perfectly' and 'aligned' are adjectives~adverbs, and they can be understood as a single word too, so yes, you can use hyphens, but you never (well, maybe there's some rules or exceptions that I'm forgetting or don't know about) have to as well.

HK edit:

err... ignore the noun part... as I forgot about the other example, lol: tree-lined

if you're describing something else (a 3rd word), then you can use hypens to connect the two words which are describing the 3rd word.

I tend to look at things from the point of view of the reader, and a lot of punctuation is aimed at making reading easier. I can't say for sure that that's why things are done, but it helps me. In a case like, "You walk along a tree lined street," (if we didn't use hyphens) imagine the reader stepping along:

You

You walk

You walk along

You walk along a

You walk a long a tree

Now at this point, the reader has parsed "You walk along a tree," which has a certain initial meaning (if somewhat bizarre), and then attempts to pull in the next word, which happens to be "lined". And the sentence stalls because it's not been "parsed" correctly. So the reader has to mentally "undo" some of what's been taken in so far to join "tree" and "lined" into one concept. Whereas if the reader is stepping along and hits "tree-lined," then it's taken in as a unit and there is no problem. I see the hyphen as a way to avoid confusion.

Now "perfectly aligned" is different, and I would not use a hyphen there myself - "perfectly" is an adverb modifying the adjective "aligned". There is no confusion when reading it. You can read to the point of "There is a perfectly" and know that *something* is coming next that "perfectly" will be modifying. There is no "stall". So it all works out ok.

Unfortunately for my psyche, there are examples that seem parallel to "tree-lined" that *don't* use the hyphen, which always throws me. So take my rationale above with a grain of salt, since it's not universal. (I don't have a ready example, but they do pop up from time to time.)

Of course, I always put a comma after a lead-in phrase as I see it aiding taking the sentence in, but that's not universal either. Perhaps it's my programmer brain...

That seems a pretty good explanation. Cheers for the impromptu English lesson.

english grammer... it's so convoluted...while I hate the harrassment from 'grammer nazis', I am also amazed at how well they can understand proper english grammer (assuming that they do, that they are correct about what they say is the proper grammer, lol).

(I don't know how important grammer is, because as with the internet's chat-code lazy language, grammer usage is dying, it will eventually be dead)

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just curious:

being an american, is british english grammer equally as bad as american english grammer, worse, or better~easier ???

Grammar. :p

HegemonKhan wrote:english grammer... it's so convoluted...while I hate the harrassment from 'grammer nazis', I am also amazed at how well they can understand proper english grammer (assuming that they do, that they are correct about what they say is the proper grammer, lol).

(I don't know how important grammer is, because as with the internet's chat-code lazy language, grammer usage is dying, it will eventually be dead)

-------

just curious:

being an american, is british english grammer equally as bad as american english grammer, worse, or better~easier ???

Every language I have ever studied have rules that make no sense. It makes me appreciate people more who come to America from another country and actually try to learn English. It does not have to be perfect just to talk to someone, but a foreigner being able to speak basic English makes me happy. C, See, Sea; U, You, Yew; Two, To, Too; "k"-nife; Whole, Hole; Eight, Ate and the list continues. But again, other languages are even worse in my opinion.

And I am not sure about the British to English grammar, how it differs. I know each have their own slangs and I find it funny when someone mentions they are going on a smoke break I will tell them to go smoke a "fag"... But I honestly hope grammar will never die. It is there for a reason, to plug all the holes that would be left behind if we did not have it.

And grammar Nazis should really only be used on official documents and in stuff like games, especially text adventures, since that is how people are viewing the world around them. But for the internet, unless people are just not caring or using elite speak or something else completely distorted, I see no reason to bash someone for misspelling a word or placing a coma in the wrong place. Really, just let it go, let it go...

TextStories wrote:U, You, Yew;

And ewe.

I find colloquialisms interesting too, especially how they compare on different sides of the pond.

A friend's dad was visiting the US and he was somewhere or other... Can't remember where. Anyway, he stood up for a moment and walked off to do something and when he returned a woman was sitting where he was.

You've pinched my seat! He said.

UK translation: you've stolen my chair.
US translation: you've grabbed my ass.

Silver wrote:

You've pinched my seat! He said.

UK translation: you've stolen my chair.
US translation: you've grabbed my ass.

Haha! Yes the very first thing that came to mind was the second response, but then again I have been told I have a dirty mind... However, I also understood quickly that it meant that the the seat was taken. However and this may sound strange, but I also like CB Radio slang and terminology. Blame it on Smokey and the Bandit! Mama and Papa Bear, Blue Light Special, the Choke and Puke, etc.

on top of different country's languages, you then got all the different dialects and styles, (and also different generations in age of people in how their language is and etc), of the various areas of those countries too...

found it... this guy really knows language... linguists are really amazing...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXxaeFXj6oY

really interesting vid on language!

Well I know they say Arabic is one the most spoken languages in the world, but it is also one with many dialects, although Egyptian is the largest. With some of the dialects though, two people in two different parts of the region would basically not be able to understand one another or you have to try to find root words to be able to talk. They write from left to right and frequently do not put their vowel marks. I have tried to learn Standard Arabic, which is their way of "standardizing" their language, but I have read that most people do not speak in that form, but their own tongue as it were.

Japanese use Katakana, Hiragana and Kanji when they write. The first two are words written out as it were. Sounds of usually one consonant and one vowel, with the first being their own words and the second being loan words or foreign words as it were. Kanji are Chinese characters that they adopted. But you can find all three in the same exact sentence and they do not use spaces. They do not use tones like the Chinese, but they do have lengthy vowels which are quite important. They also have ON and un readings, with ON being the Chinese readings and the kun being the Japanese and there could be several for the same word or meaning of a word. And just because you know the ON reading, does not mean you can speak Chinese what so ever. And then the way Kanji are combined with each other changes how they are suppose to sound or even their meanings...

Chinese Mandarin uses four tones and Cantonese uses six. Mandarin, due to the Chinese Cultural Revolution, uses simplified form of their Hanzi, while Cantonese do not, they stuck with the original form. So trying to communicate verbally wont work and writing only works now (Again thanks to the Cultural Revolution...) if you know both forms. However, a simple sound like "ji", with all four tones can add up to 20 - 40 different separate words. Reading them you could spot the different if you knew what each sign was. But just listening to it, you have to differentiate the four tones, plus know just from the context of the sentence what a word is... I am tone deaf so I am not sure why I even bother and I am not sure I really want to tackle Cantonese with it's six tones at all... Then as you said previously, even China and Japan have their own dialects on the side.

And then there is Klingon...

I may have to check out that link later.

Ka-plah!

You've pinched my seat! He said.

UK translation: you've stolen my chair.
US translation: you've grabbed my ass.

Random early morning thought: it would be more humorous if she had taken his donkey, and he had said, "You've pinched my ass!"

More seriously, despite being an American who lived over 45 years in the US before migrating to the UK, I would never have translated "seat" to "ass" in that original context.

I have been amazed, though, being in this "foreign" country, how many words are used in a subtly different way. As an example, "pavement" in the US is the street. In the UK, it's what we call in the US the "sidewalk", with the street being just the street. Not to mention things like "ring" and "call".

People like to point out the different words used ("truck" vs "lorry", "elevator" vs "lift", etc), but it's the common words used differently (chips? crisps? I have to mentally translate all the time) like the "pinched" above that cause the most grief.

I keep meaning to start compiling them and put them on a web site somewhere.,.

Pi55ed is angry for the US and drunk for UK. Fanny is gender specific here. Sorry for lowering the tone.

ya, some U.S. words got 'retired' quite some time ago, maybe 100 or 100+ years ago we used 'chair~seat (whatever)' for our rear ends (bottoms~behinds~etc: butts), now we still use fanny (well not so much use, but still know that it means 'rear end~butt' ). Most Americans, extremely ignorant unfortuantely sighs, now a days (including grammer~spellcheck and internet filters) have no idea that:

as.s = donkey
fa.ggot = a lump of coal or dung for fire fuel, our old old old 'westward wagon days' (this is really old, laughs. I'm not quite at Jay's age, so he probably knows this one, I think, well he should anyways, lol. J/K if you don't Jay, hehe)
ga.y = happy

and a lot more too... (too tired to think of any others)

I love watching stuff on the ~entomology (origin) of words, such as national spelling bees, or a movie on it (lol): Akeelah and the Bee ( http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0437800/ ), good movie btw, hehe

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our language now is really modern and pop culture, we've forgotten actual meanings of words, and forgotten a lot of the older and~or unused~uncommon words too.

I don't recognize it, sighs, I'm getting old... laughs.

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I'll never get used to english~british 's 'cheers' ... lol (though I don't like 'bravo' either, laughs)

or, calling the subway, the tube (or whatever you call it)

though I don't like how the 'tv' was known as the U.S. 'boo.b tube' either, before my time, laughs.

I'm old... a lot of things annoy me, laughs. Grumpy and ornery as I get older and older. I can't stand that 'selfie' is now official, I want to keep language with a history not this bs pop culture or texting language invasion... sighs...

jaynabonne wrote:

People like to point out the different words used ("truck" vs "lorry", "elevator" vs "lift", etc), but it's the common words used differently (chips? crisps? I have to mentally translate all the time) like the "pinched" above that cause the most grief.

I keep meaning to start compiling them and put them on a web site somewhere.,.

I am not sure about the pointing out the difference or the "Vs" words, but here is some slang. I had to finally look it up for my British comedies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_slang

Also I try to understand why words changed from one to another or why part of something was dropped off, while others added or how they are similar with in close communities/countries. Why both "gay" and "fag" came to be negative undertones, well the "fag" one did anyway. And yes, these Ebonics and hip hop lyrics with made up words just to rhyme and also elite speak as it were... keep that away, please and thank you.

I am not sure about the pointing out the difference or the "Vs" words

I just meant when people compare British English vs American English, those are the ones usually noted - those words that are wholly different. It's the words that are the same but with different meaning that can trip you up more!

I always liked "Crack On!". Got that from The Vicar of Dibley. Scream that out in the middle of a meeting with your fellow peers if you want to draw attention to or for your argument...

two more words with forgotten~unknown actual meanings to modern people:

bo.ob = a buffoon (I think, might not be exactly the right meaning, meh, laughs)
ba.be = a baby

Really? I thought those were common knowledge...

well those are a bit more known words, but I think millenials may not know them... maybe they do...

slang really ~desecrates (can't spell lol) or dominates over the words' actual meaning, sighs.

----------

the best thing I learned in college (seriously!):

the 'f' word is actually not a word at all, but an anacryonin: Forbidden Un-Common Knowledge: prudish puritans' euphinism for the taboo reproduction~knowledge, laughs.

TextStories wrote:Well I know they say Arabic is one the most spoken languages in the world, but it is also one with many dialects, although Egyptian is the largest. With some of the dialects though, two people in two different parts of the region would basically not be able to understand one another or you have to try to find root words to be able to talk. They write from left to right and frequently do not put their vowel marks. I have tried to learn Standard Arabic, which is their way of "standardizing" their language, but I have read that most people do not speak in that form, but their own tongue as it were.

Japanese use Katakana, Hiragana and Kanji when they write. The first two are words written out as it were. Sounds of usually one consonant and one vowel, with the first being their own words and the second being loan words or foreign words as it were. Kanji are Chinese characters that they adopted. But you can find all three in the same exact sentence and they do not use spaces. They do not use tones like the Chinese, but they do have lengthy vowels which are quite important. They also have ON and un readings, with ON being the Chinese readings and the kun being the Japanese and there could be several for the same word or meaning of a word. And just because you know the ON reading, does not mean you can speak Chinese what so ever. And then the way Kanji are combined with each other changes how they are suppose to sound or even their meanings...

Chinese Mandarin uses four tones and Cantonese uses six. Mandarin, due to the Chinese Cultural Revolution, uses simplified form of their Hanzi, while Cantonese do not, they stuck with the original form. So trying to communicate verbally wont work and writing only works now (Again thanks to the Cultural Revolution...) if you know both forms. However, a simple sound like "ji", with all four tones can add up to 20 - 40 different separate words. Reading them you could spot the different if you knew what each sign was. But just listening to it, you have to differentiate the four tones, plus know just from the context of the sentence what a word is... I am tone deaf so I am not sure why I even bother and I am not sure I really want to tackle Cantonese with it's six tones at all... Then as you said previously, even China and Japan have their own dialects on the side.

And then there is Klingon...

I may have to check out that link later.

Ka-plah!

This is how we start to talk about things that seem so unrelated to the topic. Hyphens > Mandarin.

The beauty of tangents.

I find the easiest way to understand where a hyphen goes is to say it out loud and listen to the structure. Two words connected with a hyphen are usually said in quick succession; so tree-lined is said almost as one word, as opposed to the clear separation used in a normal speech pattern.

In your example, say the latter out loud, and see how silly it sounds when you get to the '...lined-street' part.

I'd really have to supply a real world example of what I mean. I'll wait for one to materialise (probably in a newspaper) and get back to you.

Silver wrote:I'd really have to supply a real world example of what I mean. I'll wait for one to materialise (probably in a newspaper) and get back to you.

Not really sure what you mean by that. There is no 'real world' example where 'tree lined-street' would be used. At least not outside of a simple typo.

That was off the top of my head rather than something I read that I thought wrong. Hence a bad example. I'd need to see it done again and then post up the example here iyswim.

For UK vs US meanings: the best one is 'pants'. In the US you can put on your pants and go outside, but in the UK you'd be standing on the street in your underwear.

For original topic: here are a couple of links that may help clear things up.

Fanny pack. Sorry for being crude.

Silver wrote:Fanny pack. Sorry for being crude.

See I was never even aware of an alternate definition, fanny has always been the thing grandmothers say instead of butt.

Fanny packs worn in public are definitely offensive to most people's sensibilities though, unless you're a lady my mom's age and we're all hiking or at a theme park or something.

Marzipan wrote:For UK vs US meanings: the best one is 'pants'. In the US you can put on your pants and go outside, but in the UK you'd be standing on the street in your underwear.

For original topic: here are a couple of links that may help clear things up.

What does that have to do with the correct placing of hyphens?

Marzipan wrote:For UK vs US meanings: the best one is 'pants'. In the US you can put on your pants and go outside, but in the UK you'd be standing on the street in your underwear.

For original topic: here are a couple of links that may help clear things up.

You can go out in your pants in northwest England.

OurJud wrote:

"Marzipan"

For UK vs US meanings: the best one is 'pants'. In the US you can put on your pants and go outside, but in the UK you'd be standing on the street in your underwear.

For original topic: here are a couple of links that may help clear things up.

What does that have to do with the correct placing of hyphens?

An earlier thread tangent iirc. You have read the entire thread?

OurJud wrote:
What does that have to do with the correct placing of hyphens?

Everything. It has everything to do with hyphens, OurJud. If only you were cool like me and SIlver you would understand.

Marzipan wrote:

"OurJud"

What does that have to do with the correct placing of hyphens?

Everything. It has everything to do with hyphens, OurJud. If only you were cool like me and SIlver you would understand.

And no, I admit, I haven't read the whole thread

All you need to know about hyphens in one place:

http://www.thepunctuationguide.com/en-dash.html